Loved One’s Distrust Us Due to Our Mental Illness


A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic, and a Podcast

“. . . nobody wants to walk through hell, come out the other side and [Have someone] say, Well, but you’re mentally ill. How garbage is that? It’s garbage.”


Recovery is hard to both achieve and maintain when it comes to mental illness. It’s a long journey and in its wake are mistakes, missteps, and relapse. But, once you come out the other side and start living the life you were meant to live, everyone gets on board with the new you. Right?

Join our hosts as they discuss the family and friends who still don’t trust our thoughts, views, and choices because of the mental health symptoms we experienced in the past. Listen as they share how they feel about being told that everything they do isn’t due to their personalities, but rather a symptom of bipolar or schizophrenia.

This podcast is proudly sponsored by Betterhelp. Save 10% on your first month with the discount code “BSP22” or by Clicking Here.

Hosts of A Bipolar, A Schizophrenic, and a Podcast

gabe howard mental health advocate

Gabe Howard is a professional speaker, writer, and activist living with bipolar and anxiety disorders. Diagnosed in 2003, he has made it his mission to put a human face on mental illness.

He’s the author of Mental Illness is an Asshole and Other Observations and a popular podcast host. Learn more at

michelle hammer

Michelle Hammer is a Schizophrenia Activist and spends her time passionately fighting stigma. She is an NYC native featured in the WebMD documentary Voices, which was nominated for a Tribeca X Award at the Tribeca Film Festival 2018.

Founded and run by Michelle, Schizophrenic.NYC is a clothing brand with the mission of reducing stigma by starting conversations about mental health.


Please Note: This transcript was computer generated. Please be mindful of errors. Thank you. 

Announcer: So, what did the bipolar say to the schizophrenic? You’re in the right place to find out. . . 

Michelle Hammer: Welcome everyone, my name is Michelle Hammer, and I live with schizophrenia.

Gabe Howard: I’m Gabe Howard and I’m bipolar, and we need to give our sponsor some love. BetterHelp, you can get 10% off your first month by going to

Michelle Hammer: We just got past the holidays and I learned that my family still likes to use my mental illness against me.

Gabe Howard: What do you mean they still like to use it against? Why would this have stopped? Really, did you think it would go away? Listen, in my family, we can’t discuss religion, politics. We just added vaccines because strangely, that starts fight now or mental illness. We can’t discuss mental illness because somebody invariably will come up to me and say something stupid. Like, You know, Gabe, I think everybody’s a little bipolar. What the hell does that even mean?

Michelle Hammer: I get that I get that because I brought up that you and me, we’re going to do an episode about people using our mental illnesses against us and how my family constantly brings up the fact that I always make up stories. I don’t always make

Gabe Howard: So,

Michelle Hammer: Up stories.

Gabe Howard: So you started this. You’re the one that brought this up. It was like over the holidays and you’re like, Hey, everybody, you’re all bad to me.

Michelle Hammer: No, no, no, I just said, I just brought up that we’re going to talk about how everybody just brings up that I make up stories, but I don’t make up stories. I sometimes do, but I don’t.

Gabe Howard: So, I don’t make up stories, except when I do make up stories, but most of the time I don’t, but sometimes I do, but my family doesn’t like it when I do, even though I don’t always. But sometimes I do. What are you mad at?

Michelle Hammer: The thing is, my mother immediately goes, well, Michelle, you do know that you do make up stories, you know, you’ve made up so many stories about me. You think they’re real, but you always make up stories and that is part of your illness. And then my brother chimes in, Well, you know, don’t you make videos on YouTube where you talk about like delusions and you say that you do make up stories? So how can you say that you don’t make up stories when you say you do in the public eye? So how can you really say that you don’t?

Gabe Howard: But can you hear it from their perspective? First off, yeah, I get hit with the same thing all the time. People are like, Well, you’re always angry and you’re yelling and screaming, and I’m like, I’m not doing any of those things. I’m politely explaining my position, right? I’m an advocate on the highest levels. It is, it is my job to debate, and they’re like, Well, but when you do it, it has an edge and people are fearful because bipolar rage is a thing. I’m like, Look, I’m not being rageful. I don’t have wrath. I’m just explaining my position like, Well, you know, you’ve said on your podcast before, Gabe, that you are angry and out of control. I’m like, I yeah. I said on my podcast that before I was I, I now have like treatment and stuff. And and also if you do something once, you’re guilty of it forever?

Michelle Hammer: Yeah, just because I make up a story or some stories doesn’t mean all of my stories are wrong. Is it a made up story that my brother banged my head into the floor until my nose bled? Is it? Is it wrong? You know, does it?

Gabe Howard: Is it? Is that a made up story?

Michelle Hammer: It’s not a made up story. He did that. And what? He’s never going to remember that. He’s never going to admit to it, but I remember that it happened, but he’s never going to admit to it. And you know what? This brings up to me. I was just thinking, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound? It does make a sound because there are animals. Animals can hear, Why are we discounting animals’ ears? Why are we discounting schizophrenics? Huh? Things happen. Just because we know it happened doesn’t mean it should be discounted. Just like animals should not be discounted like they can’t hear. I know when my stories are real, you can say my stories are fake, but I know when they’re real. So stop telling me that they’re fake. Stop discounting my stories. I know that they’re real when they’re real. I know what happened.

Gabe Howard: I want all the listeners to know that we are looking for that sweet PETA money, which is why we’re defending animals right now. So, good job, Michelle, working that in, I am sure the check will be in the mail. But listen, let me let me ask you this, Michelle. Now, hang on. First off, I’m not defending your brother. I wasn’t there. Honestly, I don’t even give a shit. I’m sorry that you and your brother got in a fight when you were children. I’m pretty sure that’s just part of the normal human condition. The stuff that my brother did to me and that I did to him just and my sister got involved. There was three of us you only had to contend with two. So frankly, you’re kind of being a wuss, but hang on a second

Michelle Hammer: No, no,

Gabe Howard: Now, sincerely

Michelle Hammer: No, I’m not being a wuss.

Gabe Howard: No, no. Stop, stop.

Michelle Hammer: He was bigger than me. You’re gigantic.

Gabe Howard: You’re a top tier lacrosse player.

Michelle Hammer: You’re gigantic, he was bigger than me.

Michelle Hammer: Who fought with you when you were younger?

Gabe Howard: I know I am gigantic.

Michelle Hammer: You’re huge.

Gabe Howard: There was there was two against one. Your brother does not remember this, but you do remember it. You are positive that it happened. He is positive that it’s not. And it sounds like this is the only point that I want to clarify. It sounds like what you’re upset about is not that he doesn’t remember. It’s that the entire family assumes that you must be wrong because you live with schizophrenia. Is

Michelle Hammer: Yes.

Gabe Howard: That the crux of the issue?

Michelle Hammer: Yes, and they’ve said, you know, why don’t you listen to your own videos where you say you make things up and that you combine stories and it’s a lot of your stories aren’t real and that you make up delusions? Why don’t you just listen to what you say about yourself? Well, just because I say it sometimes doesn’t mean every single memory I have is fake.

Gabe Howard: There’s so many examples of this in our greater society where, you know, presumed innocence. Right? I get the advantage of being like you said, a giant white guy. So it is automatically assumed that I did nothing wrong until somebody proves that I did. But other members of our society and we’ve seen the court cases just meet this out all the time. Well, he must have been up to something. And of course, the members of that community, they advocate over and over and over again, they’re like, Hey, why don’t we get this benefit of the doubt?  Tying this back to our own mental health advocacy? Basically, what you’re saying is that you want your family to listen to your side. Listen to his side. And if they can’t come up with an answer, you want them to say this. Look, we don’t know. We don’t know what happened because we weren’t there. Michelle, you very well. May be right. Seth, that’s her brother. You may very well be right, but because we can’t know for sure that’s the best that we can do. What pisses you off is that even though they can’t know for sure, they’re positive, you’re wrong unless you can prove otherwise.

Michelle Hammer: Here’s the biggest story that drives me absolutely up the wall when I was 18, I got my wisdom teeth out, but I woke up in the middle and I started fighting the doctor. I’m in so much pain in my mouth because the doctor sucked. I was told for years you were not in pain. You weren’t in pain. The doctor did nothing wrong. For years, my mother didn’t take my side and it pissed me off so much. A year ago, I bring up what makes me angry the most is that you don’t take my side when I got my wisdom teeth out. She goes, What are you talking about? I was always on your side. What are you talking about? I’m like, Are you kidding me? For years, you never believe me. And now you’re saying, you believe me. And she’s like, What are you talking about? You’re making this up. What? You just change the biggest argument we’ve ever had. What that makes me livid.

Gabe Howard: Michelle, you have talked about numerous times, though, that you used to think that your mother was trying to kill you, and now that you know your mother was not trying to kill you, it was paranoia and a symptom of your schizophrenia. How do you rationalize that with all of the examples that you’re giving me? You literally thought your mom was trying to kill you so you can kind of see where maybe you get this other detail wrong? I mean, just

Michelle Hammer: Well,

Gabe Howard: Sincerely,

Michelle Hammer: No, no.

Gabe Howard: Sincerely.

Michelle Hammer: Because because I had one wisdom tooth left and a piece of another wisdom tooth because he couldn’t finish the job because I woke up in the middle, that was proof that he couldn’t finish the job. And my mom always said, No, Michelle, you were the one who was wrong. I was under the drugs or whatever they do to you and you take your wisdom teeth out. And I just kept saying I was in pain because my mouth was killing me. And she never believed me that it was his fault until a year ago when I brought it up, and she said I never took his side. I always took your side. Trust me on this one because I’ve always for years. I fought with her about this, and she even brought it up with other people like my brother in the room. They both laughed at me and laughed at me and always said it was my fault. I know this is real because I had that conversation with her for years, and then all of a sudden it flipped.

Gabe Howard: So your mom is on your side now?

Michelle Hammer: Now she is, but it pisses me off that she’s saying that she never said the other side and that I’m making that whole thing up. I’m not.

Gabe Howard: Michelle, I get it, and I don’t know if other listeners fight with their families as much as we fight with ours. I mean the Howard and the Hammers, I sincerely I think this is why we bonded because we have some sort of like holiday death match going whenever we get together for anything like arguing is basically an Olympic sport in our household. But you know where it seems like every single person who lives with mental illness really experiences this, this this disbelief and this power dynamic and this struggle to understand? It’s with their doctors, it’s when they’re inpatient. I have long since made up with my mother and my father and everybody else. But you know what I’m still furious about and pissed about? It’s when a therapist came at me and said all kinds of horrible things to me and was doing things that were frankly just horrifically improper. And I kept trying to defend myself, and I told my wife at the time that he was doing this and she did not believe me. And eventually it got so bad and I couldn’t get anybody to help me that I had to stop seeing him as a therapist. And everybody around me was like, Gabe doesn’t want to get better. This is the problem with Gabe. He won’t even get help for his illness. He’s not even trying. And it was it was horrible. Nobody believed me until about a year later. A year later, I’m no longer his patient. I hadn’t been his patient for over a year. This bastard called my workplace and tried to get me fired from my job, utilizing things that were in my private medical records.

Michelle Hammer: That’s ridiculous.

Gabe Howard: Then everybody believed me. Everybody was like, Gabe, sorry, you’re right, this guy has some sick fascination with you. I hired lawyers. We made complaints. It got real ugly, real fast

Michelle Hammer: That’s ridiculous. The only way that I ever got anything through to my parents was that I was with a friend of mine, and they’re saying things to me like, and I’m like, You said this. They said, we didn’t say that, and my friend was like, Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. To everything I was saying, they were like, We didn’t say that. They’re like, Yeah, you said that? Yeah, you said that. So I finally had somebody backing me up, which proves that they say things to me and then pretend that they don’t say things to me. So what’s going on? Why do you say things to me and then don’t?

Gabe Howard: How does that feel, Michelle, on one hand? Aren’t you, like, super excited that you got back up and you got to win the argument,

Michelle Hammer: Yes.

Gabe Howard: But doesn’t it just gall you, doesn’t it gall you with like every fiber of your being that they didn’t believe you, they believe some dumb friend you brought?

Michelle Hammer: Yes, yes. All I need is a backup. You know what, every time I’m go there, I’m just going to bring a I’m going to turn on my phone and record the entire day.

Gabe Howard: Now, what would happen, and I’m being serious, I’m being saying I can already see the look on your face, you’re like, Nope, don’t ask what would happen if you listen to back on that recording and found out you were wrong. Are you as quick to admit when you make a mistake as you want them to be? Judging by that long silence and Michelle’s blank stare, we’re going to go with Michelle never admits that she does anything wrong, which is exactly how her family is. So here’s the good news it turns out that maybe this isn’t a schizophrenia thing. Maybe your family is just messed up.

Michelle Hammer: Maybe this all started with my mother saying that I claimed, you know, she did some horrible things, but that all happened in the past in high school. So I understand in high school I accused her of a lot of horrible things. It’s not high school anymore. I’ve been out of high school for a really long time. Stop treating me like I’m the same person like I was back then. I’m not that same person. I understand when I’m hallucinating and delusional now. I know what things are real and what things are fake now. I know when you say something rude to me, I know when you tell me that I can’t do something. And now that I sometimes have people backing me up, it really works. Just stop treating me like everything I say is wrong and stop saying that it’s completely plausible because I talk about delusions on video. Shut up already. Just shut up.

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Michelle Hammer: And we’re back discussing fighting with our families.

Gabe Howard: You really dislike this idea that because you are being open and honest about your shortcomings and your issues and helping other people manage their schizophrenia, that it’s being used against you, is that what I’m hearing?

Michelle Hammer: Yes.

Gabe Howard: That’s what you’re saying. You’re like if I sat at home and did nothing and helped nobody, you’d all say that I was selfish. But because I’m out there helping people and helping people understand and educating people, and I have this massive following of people whose lives are better because I’m so open. You’ve also managed to turn that into a negative.

Michelle Hammer: Yes, exactly. Why are you using my videos against me? I’m trying to help people, but you’re turning it against me. What did I do wrong? I didn’t do anything wrong.

Gabe Howard: One of the things that I try to think about is, is this a protective factor on my family’s part, like maybe my mom and dad don’t want to admit that they punish their son for wanting to kill himself, right? Like, maybe my parents don’t want to admit that they didn’t realize how sick I was me. Maybe my parents are denying this, not because they’re against me, but because they’re protecting themselves. You know, my my mom and dad don’t want to be seen as bad parents. They want to be seen as good parents. My parents did a lot of stuff, right? They did a lot of stuff wrong. But is it possible that that some of this has nothing to do with us, but they’re just defending themselves and and helping their own trauma. It’s about their feelings and what they went through because we put some people through some shit. Michelle.

Michelle Hammer: They just they don’t like to admit that they did anything wrong ever.

Gabe Howard: Does anybody?

Michelle Hammer: Everything they did was always in my best interest and for the best.

Gabe Howard: But don’t all parents say that?

Michelle Hammer: If they dare said anything insulting or wrong or mean to me, it must be fake, it must be fake because they’re just so perfect. They do everything for me, of course. If I said that they said this or said that or said that or said that, of course they never, ever said it and they only do the best things. So if I accuse them of anything, I’m wrong. They’re right. That’s how it goes.

Gabe Howard: Like, isn’t this present in all families? Like, isn’t this not about bipolar and schizophrenia? Don’t all mothers fight with their daughters?

Michelle Hammer: Do they I actually yeah, I would say that all mothers fight with their daughters, but I don’t think all mothers just accuse their daughters of being wrong all the time because of schizophrenia and get mad when anything gets brought up because no, it’s just schizophrenia. Michelle, don’t get mad at me all the time because you do make things up and I’m never wrong and you accuse me, you accuse me all of the times of doing such horrible things to you. And you do. You totally do. Don’t put all this on me all the time because you’re the one who makes things up and you say you make things up. So don’t say that I’m wrong. You’ve accused me of so much throughout your whole life. So it’s your illness. Don’t even start, bitch.

Gabe Howard: But that is brutal, but again, it sounds like it sounds like you’re not mad that they disagree with you. You’re mad for why they disagree with you.

Michelle Hammer: They discount everything that I say and say, I’m making it up because I have schizophrenia.

Gabe Howard: And that’s what pisses you off.

Michelle Hammer: Yes.

Gabe Howard: So if they disagreed with everything you said for some other reason, that would piss you off less.

Michelle Hammer: Yes.

Gabe Howard: I agree. I am fascinated at the number of times that that I am serving on a board of directors or advocating for something, and somebody says something like, Well, I think you’re just seeing it through the bipolar lens.

Michelle Hammer: Oh, my God, tell them to shut up.

Gabe Howard: And what I want to say is, you know, that’s this the description of a podcast that I host with this woman with schizophrenia from New York City, a podcast that I would like to point out was huge. It was so popular. And you know who created that podcast the dumb ass with bipolar and the dumb ass with schizophrenia. You know who’s trying to make podcasts and they fail left and right? Famous people. Famous people are constantly weirdly releasing these garbage podcasts. And you know who had a Reddit thread? Gabe and Michele people discount us constantly, but yet we have achieved on levels that other people cannot achieve on despite having more resources, time, energy, money and people than we do. Why don’t we ever get credit for that? I want somebody to walk up to us and say, Hey, you guys make money podcasting. You’re goddamn right we do. Wow. Everybody else I know that has a podcast lives in their parents’ basement. Michelle, do you live in your parents’ basement?

Michelle Hammer: I definitely don’t live in my parents’ basement, but mostly because it’s it’s not a finished basement that would be like really disgusting.

Gabe Howard: So if it was a finished basement, you’d move in with your mom who would tell you that you only live there because you have schizophrenia. That’s where you’re going with this.

Michelle Hammer: No.

Gabe Howard: That’s that’s your big mic drop moment? I’m ashamed

Michelle Hammer: No, I

Gabe Howard: Of you right now.

Michelle Hammer: I would never live in my parents basement. They live in suburbia, suburbia. You can’t even walk to anywhere unless you’re walking for like an hour and a half to two hours. You need a car. And then where are you driving to Lord and Taylor? I don’t want to go there.

Gabe Howard: What’s Lord and Taylor?

Michelle Hammer: A stupid store where you buy expensive clothing.

Gabe Howard: All the expensive clothing that you need to buy is on Schizophrenic.NYC.

Michelle Hammer: That’s what I’m saying.

Gabe Howard: It’s the first store created by a schizophrenic girl for anybody with money.

Michelle Hammer: That’s what I like, I like money, I’m a fan of money, I wish I had more money. I love it. I’m a big fan of money. It’s great.

Gabe Howard: Is that why I should hire you for a job at the bank? Are you quoting Adam Sandler

Michelle Hammer: Yes,

Gabe Howard: Movies now?

Michelle Hammer: That is my favorite quote of Adam Sandler. That’s how you get a job at a bank. Say you love money.

Gabe Howard: Michelle, there’s there’s no way to tie this up in a bow, but but you and I and I think people listening. It’s not that we’re against being wrong, it’s not that we’re against debating or being challenged. We’re just against people looking at us and saying we don’t even have to consider you because you have X. It’s abusive and it’s mean and we can never overcome it. I’m going to have bipolar for the rest of my life. So if the only way that my family is going to see me as an equal as if I don’t have bipolar, I’ve already lost. And you know how horrible that is. I wish more people understood that. And look, I’m in a much better place with my family than you are with yours because they only pull out that, you know, wrath of Gabe thing. A couple of times a year, whereas your mom pulls out the schizophrenia thing a couple of times a conversation. Maybe, Michelle, this is just Gabe’s advice to you. Maybe stop bringing up the past. Maybe focus on the future.

Michelle Hammer: If I ever say, do you remember when?

Gabe Howard: Yes, stop saying that. Why do you keep saying that?

Michelle Hammer: Listen, we only brought up this thing on the holidays because I said we were bringing up this topic on the podcast and then all of a sudden everybody turned on me and by everybody, I bring my mom and my brother.

Gabe Howard: You know, that’s another thing that you do do, I don’t know if it’s because you have schizophrenia, but you are black and white. I don’t think it’s because you have schizophrenia. I think it’s because you’re nuts and not like mentally ill, like nuts. How many people were at that holiday event? Like what? Like, like 10, 15? How many? How many people were in your parents house that day?

Michelle Hammer: Um, me, Carrie, Michael, Seth

Gabe Howard: Are you literally counting right now? Just give me a basic number.

Michelle Hammer: Jeff, Sue, Janet

Gabe Howard: Oh boy.

Michelle Hammer: About 10.

Gabe Howard: So 10 people, so 20 percent of the people turned on you. 80 percent of the people didn’t. And you classify that as everybody turned on me. Maybe you’re making it worse in your own head. Maybe if you reframed this to, Hey, look, I got in a disagreement with my mom and my brother, and, you know, we didn’t resolve it, but we moved on and we had a happy holiday that would make you feel better than what you’re actually saying, which is I went to the holidays and everybody turned on me.

Michelle Hammer: I didn’t say everybody turned on me.

Gabe Howard: Yes, you did.

Michelle Hammer: I didn’t say everyone.

Gabe Howard: You did. You said everybody turned on me.

Michelle Hammer: I’d didn’t say everybody.

Gabe Howard: Yes you did.

Michelle Hammer: No, I didn’t say everyone.

Gabe Howard: You said everybody turned on me.

Michelle Hammer: I didn’t

Gabe Howard: Yes,

Michelle Hammer: No, I didn’t.

Gabe Howard: People are going to hit that little forty-five second button on their little podcast players and they’re going to be like, Oh, Gabe was right and Gabe wasn’t right because you have schizophrenia. Gabe was right because we recorded it.

Michelle Hammer: I could call my mother up right now and say, do you remember when we were in? And she’ll say, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Are you making this up right now? I don’t remember anything like that. You’re making it up. Anything, anything. I’ll call her and say, Oh, do you remember that? Do you remember that? You remember that? I don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re making this whole thing up.

Gabe Howard: Why do you keep doing that, then?

Michelle Hammer: Anything. I’m just saying. It doesn’t matter what I bring up.

Gabe Howard: Solve your own problem.

Michelle Hammer: I can bring up anything. She will tell me that I’m making it up.

Gabe Howard: Then stop, stop.

Michelle Hammer: But that’s my whole point, it doesn’t

Gabe Howard: Stop

Michelle Hammer: Matter what it is. If she says anything to me.

Gabe Howard: Then stop.

Michelle Hammer: Anything to me and I bring it up again, that she said it to me, she’s going to say she never said it and that I’m making it up. I don’t make these things up. I’m not making up things. She forgets.

Gabe Howard: We’ve already established that.

Michelle Hammer: Listen, listen. And her mother, my grandmother, had horrible Alzheimer’s that turned into dementia. So you know what my favorite thing is I always say, Hey, Tessie,

Gabe Howard: Aww.

Michelle Hammer: Turning into Tessie? Is your name Tessie?

Gabe Howard: Why? Why, why are you call your mom dead grandma names?

Michelle Hammer: Because she’s got, I always claimed that she’s getting Alzheimer’s.

Gabe Howard: That’s, that’s, that’s

Michelle Hammer: You don’t remember getting Alzheimer’s? Hi, Tessie.

Gabe Howard: Are are you trying to make the problem better? Or are you just throwing gas on it and wondering why your family is whoosh?

Michelle Hammer: Gabe, I don’t need you fighting with me now.

Gabe Howard: Yes, you do. That’s the whole point of our podcast.

Michelle Hammer: Listen.

Gabe Howard: We literally thought about renaming it a bipolar schizophrenic and an argument.

Michelle Hammer: [Laughter]

Gabe Howard: I don’t. But Michelle, where do you go from here? What are you going to do? This is causing you so much pain. You can’t be the woman in her mid-thirties and then mid 40s and then mid 50s, whose whole thing is, I hate my mom. You know how unoriginal and basic that is? Come on, everybody hates their mom. That’s what moms are for.

Michelle Hammer: There’s no way that I could ever talk to my mother where we don’t get into a fight.

Gabe Howard: So if you just accepted this about each other that you’re both like bullheaded people and you’re just you’re just destined to butt heads for the rest of your life

Michelle Hammer: Listen.

Gabe Howard: Because look, I got family members like that. I do, I do. I know that there’s going to be a throwdown whenever certain people walk in the room. I have just accepted this about them.

Michelle Hammer: When I had to move home after college, because that’s what you unfortunately usually have to do after college. She’s bugging me, she’s bugging me, she’s bugging me. I’m at the dinner table with my dad and I say to my dad, you chose her. I didn’t.

Gabe Howard: What what is that, what does that even mean? You just you and your mom get in a fight and you’re now you insult? Your father’s romantic relationship from before you were born? Look, I’m mad at your dad for picking her, too, because if he wouldn’t have picked her, the two of them never would have had you. And you know how much better my life would be?

Michelle Hammer: It would be worse, Gabe.

Gabe Howard: Like, how much more quiet.

Michelle Hammer: It would be worse.

Gabe Howard: It would be worse. It would be.

Michelle Hammer: It would be so much worse, Gabe.

Gabe Howard: This is growth. Ladies and gentlemen, Michelle, we have banged this drum to death. The bottom line is we don’t like it when people discount us based only on our illness. If people want to discount us, find other reasons, do some homework. Michelle and I are in fact reasonable people and we have achieved on really high levels in spite of our mental illness. I know that the people who are listening have also achieved things. They are achieving things. They’re walking through hell and they’re coming out the other side and nobody wants to walk through hell, come out the other side and say, Well, but you’re mentally ill. How garbage is that? It’s garbage.

Michelle Hammer: You know, it’s the worst. So how are you doing?

Gabe Howard: How are you doing, Michelle? How are you doing?

Michelle Hammer: How is everything? How are?

Gabe Howard: How are you doing? How do you feel?

Michelle Hammer: Is everything OK?

Gabe Howard: How do you feel about love?

Michelle Hammer: How’s it going? Like, yeah, how’s everything with your doctor? Are things good with your doctor?

Gabe Howard: Michelle, we have to get out of here because we’ve only paid for the studio for like an hour. Are you ready to go?

Michelle Hammer: I’m ready to go.

Gabe Howard: So listen up, everybody. You have been listening to a bipolar schizophrenic and a podcast, and wherever you download this episode, subscribe or follow to the show, it is completely free and listen. The only way that we can grow is if you you personally you listening to this tell a friend posted on social media. Send a text message. Word of mouth. Frankly, we don’t give a shit what you do. As long as you make Gabe and Michel famous, share the show.

Michelle Hammer: If you’re interested in the first clothing line started by a New York schizophrenic chick, go to my online store, Schizophrenic.NYC.

Gabe Howard: And if you are interested in my book, “Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations,” go to and grab a signed copy and I’ll even throw in free swag and listen, this is very important. Gabe and Michele are allowed to leave our states and we travel nationally as speakers. You can find out more information on our respective websites. And hey, right back where we started, do you want to save 10 percent on your first month of online therapy? We set that up for you with our sponsor, BetterHelp. Check out BetterHelp by going to and we will see everybody next week.

Michelle Hammer: It happened!

Announcer: You’ve been listening to A Bipolar, a Schizophrenic, and a Podcast, Season 2. Previous episodes can be found on your favorite podcast player or by visiting Have comments or show ideas? Hit up the show at Gabe and Michelle are not medical professionals. This podcast is not a substitute for medical advice and is for entertainment purposes only. If you need help, please call your doctor, emergency services, the national suicide hotline at 1-800-273-8255 or text HOME to 741741. Thank you for listening.